Kuntry Karl S...and Anyone Else who wants to Chime In,
Karl, you mentioned in a post somewheres, that flap gap seals were not worth the money (your comment was somewhat saltier). You also made mention that they had some evil effect when using full flaps on final approach. When I have the DeathStar all dirtied up on short final, about 10 feet or so above the runway and at about 60-65 mph I get a real quick increase in sink rate. Don't know if it's not enough back pressure on the yoke, its the FGS's interfering...or I just ain't holding my mouth right. I have the GO300 and am usually carrying about 1200 RPM. I'd shore 'nuff appreciate your thoughts (using small words).
Regards,
Darth
Full Version: Flap-Gap Seals & Full Flaps
Mike,
When you get to be an "old fart" you are always talking of things that took place many years ago, as if they were yesterday. I converted a C175 w/180 lyc to tail wheel, back in 1985 and at that time had a Horton Cuff and flap gap seals installed. My first landing was so fast (compared to thousands of others) that I immediately took them back off, but not before I checked speed to see if they increased top speed. They did not, at least not that I could measure, and you will never find a legit claim that they do increase speed, except in landing and that is considerable.
Remember, 90% of my landings in those days, were "off airport" and going slow on touchdown, is extremely important. My normal touch down is 50 mph, my approach is 55 to 60 mph on final, with full flaps. I never, never, never make a landing without using fulls flaps. I want my wrecks to be at a slow speed.
I'm not going to spend the money, but I sure would like to see someone do a before and after, using Flap gap seals.
When you get to be an "old fart" you are always talking of things that took place many years ago, as if they were yesterday. I converted a C175 w/180 lyc to tail wheel, back in 1985 and at that time had a Horton Cuff and flap gap seals installed. My first landing was so fast (compared to thousands of others) that I immediately took them back off, but not before I checked speed to see if they increased top speed. They did not, at least not that I could measure, and you will never find a legit claim that they do increase speed, except in landing and that is considerable.
Remember, 90% of my landings in those days, were "off airport" and going slow on touchdown, is extremely important. My normal touch down is 50 mph, my approach is 55 to 60 mph on final, with full flaps. I never, never, never make a landing without using fulls flaps. I want my wrecks to be at a slow speed.
I'm not going to spend the money, but I sure would like to see someone do a before and after, using Flap gap seals.
QUOTE (Karl Storjohann @ Apr 10 2008, 06:18 PM) 
Mike,
When you get to be an "old fart" you are always talking of things that took place many years ago, as if they were yesterday.
When you get to be an "old fart" you are always talking of things that took place many years ago, as if they were yesterday.
Thanx fr the reply...on both this site and the Flyer site...BTW...Us old geezers gotta stick together...Now if I could just remember who you are and why I'm "foruming" with you :-)
QUOTE (Karl Storjohann @ Apr 10 2008, 06:18 PM)
I converted a C175 w/180 lyc to tail wheel, back in 1985 and at that time had a Horton Cuff and flap gap seals installed. My first landing was so fast (compared to thousands of others) that I immediately took them back off, but not before I checked speed to see if they increased top speed. They did not, at least not that I could measure, and you will never find a legit claim that they do increase speed, except in landing and that is considerable.
Do you think that is what is causing my accelerated sink rate when I get to ground effect?? My speed is between 60-65 mph...It just seems to run out of lift.
QUOTE (Karl Storjohann @ Apr 10 2008, 06:18 PM)
I want my wrecks to be at a slow speed.
Me Too
QUOTE (Karl Storjohann @ Apr 10 2008, 06:18 PM)
but I sure would like to see someone do a before and after, using Flap gap seals.
Again...Me too...before I take them off.
Hope all is well w/you.
Regards,
Darth
Lets take a vote.....
Everyone in favor of Darth doing the testing of flap gap seals, vote now.......
Then we will know once and for all, DO FLAP GAP SEALS INCREASE STALL SPEED!
Are FLAP GAP SEALS AN EXPENSE WITH NO BENEFIT?
Everyone in favor of Darth doing the testing of flap gap seals, vote now.......
Then we will know once and for all, DO FLAP GAP SEALS INCREASE STALL SPEED!
Are FLAP GAP SEALS AN EXPENSE WITH NO BENEFIT?
I second the motion that Darth should become a test pilot for this project.
I put gap seals on mine....but couldn't tell a difference since a put the Micro-VG's on at the same time.
I put gap seals on mine....but couldn't tell a difference since a put the Micro-VG's on at the same time.
I vote Vader become test pilot. That way I don't have to on mine.
There is an old Cessna report on the design philosophy of the semi-cantalever wing. In it they talk about the different types of flaps and the reason Cessna used the slotted flaps over split or plain flaps.
The slotted flap achieves maximum lift at 40 degrees of deflection while the split or plain flaps achieve maximum lift at 60 - 70 degrees of deflection.
It says that at 20 degrees deflection for take-off the slotted flap produces section lift forces that are 30% greater than the split flap and 55% greater than the plain flap. At full flap deflection the slotted flap produces lift forces that are 22% greater than the split flap and 31% greater than the plain flap.
It also says that for equal lift the slotted flap creates approximately 30% less drag than the split or plain type of flap. And that the slotted flap produces approximately 10% shorter take-off and landing distances than equivelent plain flaps. Slotted flpas have the unique advantage of creating high lift with relatively low drag for take-off flap settings.
By installing flap gap seals, one is changing the airflow over the slotted flap and altering the lift/drag characteristics.
The slotted flap achieves maximum lift at 40 degrees of deflection while the split or plain flaps achieve maximum lift at 60 - 70 degrees of deflection.
It says that at 20 degrees deflection for take-off the slotted flap produces section lift forces that are 30% greater than the split flap and 55% greater than the plain flap. At full flap deflection the slotted flap produces lift forces that are 22% greater than the split flap and 31% greater than the plain flap.
It also says that for equal lift the slotted flap creates approximately 30% less drag than the split or plain type of flap. And that the slotted flap produces approximately 10% shorter take-off and landing distances than equivelent plain flaps. Slotted flpas have the unique advantage of creating high lift with relatively low drag for take-off flap settings.
By installing flap gap seals, one is changing the airflow over the slotted flap and altering the lift/drag characteristics.
Rick,
That is very interesting info, and seems to explain why my landing speed was so much faster with flap gap seals.
However, it's been very quiet in Darth's corner. Your info should convince him to do the testing before HE TAKES THEM OFF. I can hear them yelling in the "strip joint" now.......TAKE EM OFF, TAKE EM ALL OFF.
That is very interesting info, and seems to explain why my landing speed was so much faster with flap gap seals.
However, it's been very quiet in Darth's corner. Your info should convince him to do the testing before HE TAKES THEM OFF. I can hear them yelling in the "strip joint" now.......TAKE EM OFF, TAKE EM ALL OFF.
Mike,
I just had the thought about your comment about a high sink rate at 60 mph. You might consider getting a AoA (angle of attack) indicator. (alpha systems from Depot Star) For about $400 bucks, you will know the minimum controlable airspeed in all conditions. I just set the needle in the red area and know that I am above my minimum control speed. The mark that separates the white and red is the true minimum speed and I use that for short strips.
This is the greatest thing, since "beer in the can". (for those uneducated.....you can haul more beer in the Alum can, then beer in bottles into your camp site). That should be on the Commercial written test.
Darth Vader.....where are you?
I just had the thought about your comment about a high sink rate at 60 mph. You might consider getting a AoA (angle of attack) indicator. (alpha systems from Depot Star) For about $400 bucks, you will know the minimum controlable airspeed in all conditions. I just set the needle in the red area and know that I am above my minimum control speed. The mark that separates the white and red is the true minimum speed and I use that for short strips.
This is the greatest thing, since "beer in the can". (for those uneducated.....you can haul more beer in the Alum can, then beer in bottles into your camp site). That should be on the Commercial written test.
Darth Vader.....where are you?
QUOTE (Karl Storjohann @ Apr 14 2008, 04:01 AM)
Mike,
I just had the thought about your comment about a high sink rate at 60 mph. You might consider getting a AoA (angle of attack) indicator. (alpha systems from Depot Star) For about $400 bucks, you will know the minimum controlable airspeed in all conditions. I just set the needle in the red area and know that I am above my minimum control speed. The mark that separates the white and red is the true minimum speed and I use that for short strips.
This is the greatest thing, since "beer in the can". (for those uneducated.....you can haul more beer in the Alum can, then beer in bottles into your camp site). That should be on the Commercial written test.
Darth Vader.....where are you?
I just had the thought about your comment about a high sink rate at 60 mph. You might consider getting a AoA (angle of attack) indicator. (alpha systems from Depot Star) For about $400 bucks, you will know the minimum controlable airspeed in all conditions. I just set the needle in the red area and know that I am above my minimum control speed. The mark that separates the white and red is the true minimum speed and I use that for short strips.
This is the greatest thing, since "beer in the can". (for those uneducated.....you can haul more beer in the Alum can, then beer in bottles into your camp site). That should be on the Commercial written test.
Darth Vader.....where are you?
Karl,
AOAI is on my "list." However, the list is supended (purchase-wise) until after June 26th...I'll explain then...good news actually. Sorry I've been MIA for a bit...I flew the DeathStar down to StPete this weekend to see Princess Leia. We drove over to Sun-n-Fun Saturday to look at toys to put on the "list." Intended to fly back Sunday but WX held me up. Got back early afternoon yesterday....had to fly low the whole way back due to ceilings...like riding an old Harley down a bad piece of country road. I also agree that the written needs to have more "practical info."
Darth
Hey Team,
As I said in my previous reply to Karl...I was out of own w/Princess Leia this past weekend. I'm up for doing some testing. Gimme some time to work out something w/my instructor (STILL working on the Instrument Ticket) & maybe we can work some of that in while we review fundamentals...you know "push to make houses bigger, pull to make 'em smaller." I'll work up a test sheet & post it up here later for comment...unless someone else already has one to go by.
BTW....Sun-n-Fun was cool....LOTS more toys than I had AU to buy.
Regards,
Darth
As I said in my previous reply to Karl...I was out of own w/Princess Leia this past weekend. I'm up for doing some testing. Gimme some time to work out something w/my instructor (STILL working on the Instrument Ticket) & maybe we can work some of that in while we review fundamentals...you know "push to make houses bigger, pull to make 'em smaller." I'll work up a test sheet & post it up here later for comment...unless someone else already has one to go by.
BTW....Sun-n-Fun was cool....LOTS more toys than I had AU to buy.
Regards,
Darth
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